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<  PVE  ~  blackhand statistics and why we are wiping so damn much RANT

PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:26 pm
User avatarFriendlyPosts: 24Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:07 am
MANY ISSUES, HANDLE THEM!

begin rant

ok so we're wiping a lot on blackhand and its mostly due to not avoiding avoidable damage, among a few other things i'll sum up at the bottom, but the avoidable stuff is the most important. I've gone through the log of our best pull and there's still a ton of issues. Other pulls are likely even worse.

phase 1:
yes we get out of phase one pretty much every time but we are still having problems. Problems that waste healer mana that will be needed in phase 2, and we haven't even really seen phase 3 yet which is by far the most demanding phase.

Massive demolition:
this is the big red circle in phase 1 when shit falls from the ceiling. we SUCK at it. our average damage per person, per circle taken is around 60-65k which is terrible. Sal gets a gold star here for averaging only 35k. The problem is I dont think everyone understands that you have to not only not be standing in the circle, but not even near it. like be 40+ yards away from them by the time it smashes down or else you will take a ton of damage. You will take damage no matter what, how much damage, is entirely up to you.

impaling throw:
we already know how deadly this is hopefully. you get hit, you get knocked way back and take some damage(80k). thats not the problem, the problem is you also take 30k damage every 3 seconds for 45 seconds, another 450k damage as a DOT. Moral of the story, don't get hit. This is valid in phase 1 and 2.
on our best pull, EVERYONE(except sal, another gold star) got hit at least once, some up to 4. on our worst pulls, probably a lot more, didnt check them all. I know its harder to not get hit in phase 2, but we still need to try to minimize this damage.

slag bomb:
the mines on the floor. lots of people hitting them and they do 108K damage. thats a lot. again our best pull EVERYONE hit at least one, some two. Sorry sal, you're guilty here too.

molten slag:
phase 1. this is the fire on the outside of the room. no excuse for getting hit by this. Possible exception is if tanks or melee take a tick or two since they are forced to be on the outside ring due to mechanics, but it should be minimized as much as possible. Not a critical issue since phase 1 we can get through routinely, but worth mentioning regardless.

battering ram:
phase 2. people are getting hit by the siege tanks. don't do it. 80k damage and a knockback. screws up positioning and knocks you out of healing range and possibly into something else bad. 7 people got hit here between 1 and 3 times.

explosive round:
ok so this isn't unavoidable damage, but it can be prevented. We need to do better at clearing the balconies. Get sent up to the right one every time and go kill the mobs. if we do better at the previous points, we'll have more health when we get sent up and can clear the mobs faster. They have 80k hp, shouldn't be hard to kill quickly. I can kill one in about 2 or 3 GCD's on my mage. We WILL get overwhelmed by them towards the end of phase two. its a soft enrage for the phase, but we still need to control them as best as possible. Also, spread out 6 yards in phase 2. each shot does 13k damage as an aoe. 3 people get hit at once and you take 30k damage each when you all get hit, 30k vs 90k damage.


Finally, some statistics that I know no one wants to hear, maybe don't believe, or just dont care about.

our average item level as a group is 676. of all uploaded logs, there is a 94% wipe rate for this gear level. This means one of two things.

A: Improve our play, get better at rotations to increase damage through skill, reduce avoidable damage taken(this is very important), and do mechanics better.(MOST important and will reduce avoidable damage naturally. Kill two birds with one stone.) Statistically we have a 6% chance of success right now, which means we should be playing in the top 10-15% of players for our gear level(we aren't even close. we're in the bottom 15% for dps.

B: Improve our gear to reduce difficulty. This would require farming BRF which i've suggested but no one wants to do. So if this is out, the only option is getting better.

Bottom line is, either we need to step it up and play better, or get more gear so we can do better. Get everyone 4 pc tier bonuses, and bump up ilvl a bit is probably all it would take. I'm frustrated with bashing our face against a wall trying to brute force killing this boss but the bottom line is we are sloppy. I want to kill blackhand, but if we don't improve our play it will not happen without better gear.

end rant.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:31 pm
User avatarFriendlyPosts: 24Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:07 am
oh I forgot to add my other rant.

changing strategies every single pull.
STOP IT.

monday night our best pull was our first pull. we got him to 30%. Then we changed things and did progressively worse all night. By now we know the fight, we know our jobs, we just need to execute them. We dont need to keep throwing stuff out there to try differently next pull for the most part. The only thing we need to change, is stop taking unnecessary damage.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:54 pm
User avatarExaltedPosts: 155Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:07 am
A note about impaling throw in phase 2....

At some point, there is no way to avoid that damage. 2 people get marked for death and there is no siege to hide behind. I believe this is every 3rd or so marked for death that this happens. At this point, I believe that it would be easier for the tank to take the impaling throw, since they're already getting heals dumped on them anyway. This will prevent both a huge DoT, as well as being throw halfway across the room and out of healing/dps range.


Also, balconies:

Every 3rd wave of mobs that comes out (so every 3rd smash), there will be a double wave. It will be extra important that a dps goes up for that round for sure, as well as a healer, to ensure that all of the mobs are killed quickly. The second wave comes out of a door, all at once, and can be stunned/snared/etc as a group before they spread out to their positions. So, we want to ensure that whoever is up there is aware that that'll be happening and get them down quickly as a group before they spread.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 5:11 pm
User avatarSite AdminPosts: 221Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:12 pm
I am probably in the minority, but I am excited that only 6% of the players with our ilevel have been successful. This does not mean we have a 6% chance for success. Because it can be done with our ilevel, our probability for success is determined by our skill (no clue what our % chance for success is). This statistic alone is somewhat misleading - it was called a wipe rate - that doesn't indicate how many wipes per group, or the number of wipes before a successful kill. Some groups could wipe 100 times before getting it at this level, others could wipe 20. Obviously we're not the 20 wipe group.

Anyway, my $0.02: I'd rather wipe continuously on normal and get the fight than grind our heroic kills just for better gear. I know mizz does not share this opinion, probably others as well. I'm not really interested in grinding heroics and following someone else's strat to the letter - I don't really find that interesting and it wont really feel like an accomplishment if we do that. We might be better off not extending. In the past before raid extensions, you had to get better at being prepared, killing trash, and killing bosses before you got a shot at the final boss. This naturally increases the supply of gear flowing into the group and increases our skill and coordination as a group.

I think your breakdown of the damage we took is awesome - lots of room for improvement there. Lots of room for personal improvement, but also lots of room for group improvements as well:

P1: Better campfire placement, better tank kiting (nearer campfires)
P2: Better siege kiting, better ranged following of the seige, better coordination of knock-ups and better overall job of killing balcony adds, better siege pickups (be aware of the siege spawning and gtfo), etc.

I think you covered all the important details about why/how/who/what has happening regarding damage so I don't have anything to add there really.

I disagree on a few things though:

Changing Strats - This is my fault because I'm stubborn. I 100% believe that (especially with encounters these days) it is a mistake on a hard boss to try to follow someone else's strat without knowing why or how the strat was derived. Bob and someone else mentioned that a lot of the strat videos you guys are watching go into great detail regarding why/when/how things are happening - that is awesome. I don't watch videos, so I'm bringing the group down in that regard. That being said - even after people watched strats, it's obvious we still don't know how/who/what is happening. Dungeon journal is our best friend here. It's unclear on some things (like who and how many get sent up on smash). I also feel like strats for other groups may work for them for reasons we can't emulate - comps, group synergy, etc. I think we'd get more out of getting our tanks/heals/dps good at coordinating cooldowns/communicating/etc than we would following a strat that might or might not work for our comp. This is all speculation on my part - maybe it's irrelevant or not a big enough deal to matter. I'm still not watching videos. Anyway, I'm not keen on sticking to a strat that we don't understand and I've been muscling my opinions/suggestions into the mix, so I'll stop that.

Best Pull 30% - I think this is pretty misleading. We were wiped well before the transition (I think a tank and a healer made it to the floor in p3). While we made it to 30% we had already failed the pull at probably 50% when people started dying (making that up, but it's par the course so far). My memory makes me think pulls to 40-45% are pretty repeatable. I also think that it was a fluke because we don't know what we were doing that got us to 30%. With any strat we've used it's always a gamble for the following things:

1. Who picks up the siege
2. Who goes up to the balcony
3. Where the boss is being kited to
4. Who gets impaled (marked is random, but no one should get impaled)

OG and I ignored the strat for the first pull that night (and subsequent pulls) and focused on killing the sieges before the spit fire on the floor (we weren't always successful). We seemed to do better when we did that. We have to eat some impales when we do this. We don't have a plan for handling this, so we aren't adapting to it when it happens. Puts more pressure on healers which sucks. I personally think we can't assign siege or balcony duty, but we don't seem to be able to get very far unless we do.


Side note: our comps have sucked. 2 tanks/4 heals/6 deeps is terrible.
----

Anyway, we did pretty good all things considered. I need to get better at deferring to Bob so I'll shut my pie hole regarding strats/etc. My numbers suck balls on some fights, so I'm fine sitting out - I wont take it personally. I'm still interested in normal progression fights/clears, but I'm not really interested in grinding heroics for phat lewtz.



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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:50 pm
User avatarFriendlyPosts: 24Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:07 am
salovia wrote:
I am probably in the minority, but I am excited that only 6% of the players with our ilevel have been successful. This does not mean we have a 6% chance for success. Because it can be done with our ilevel, our probability for success is determined by our skill (no clue what our % chance for success is). This statistic alone is somewhat misleading - it was called a wipe rate - that doesn't indicate how many wipes per group, or the number of wipes before a successful kill. Some groups could wipe 100 times before getting it at this level, others could wipe 20. Obviously we're not the 20 wipe group.



Just to add, it does say the average, which is 18.1 wipes per kill. Just to add that in there. I was just pointing this out to show that its #1, doable, and #2, will require everyone to be on their 'A' game.

salovia wrote:

Anyway, my $0.02: I'd rather wipe continuously on normal and get the fight than grind our heroic kills just for better gear. I know mizz does not share this opinion, probably others as well. I'm not really interested in grinding heroics and following someone else's strat to the letter - I don't really find that interesting and it wont really feel like an accomplishment if we do that. We might be better off not extending. In the past before raid extensions, you had to get better at being prepared, killing trash, and killing bosses before you got a shot at the final boss. This naturally increases the supply of gear flowing into the group and increases our skill and coordination as a group.


I'm willing to wipe all day long as long as we're making progress. Progress doesn't necessarily require changing strats, just better execution. Other times it absolutely requires changing strats.
salovia wrote:

I think your breakdown of the damage we took is awesome - lots of room for improvement there. Lots of room for personal improvement, but also lots of room for group improvements as well:

P1: Better campfire placement, better tank kiting (nearer campfires)
P2: Better siege kiting, better ranged following of the seige, better coordination of knock-ups and better overall job of killing balcony adds, better siege pickups (be aware of the siege spawning and gtfo), etc.

I think you covered all the important details about why/how/who/what has happening regarding damage so I don't have anything to add there really.

I disagree on a few things though:

Changing Strats - This is my fault because I'm stubborn. I 100% believe that (especially with encounters these days) it is a mistake on a hard boss to try to follow someone else's strat without knowing why or how the strat was derived. Bob and someone else mentioned that a lot of the strat videos you guys are watching go into great detail regarding why/when/how things are happening - that is awesome. I don't watch videos, so I'm bringing the group down in that regard. That being said - even after people watched strats, it's obvious we still don't know how/who/what is happening. Dungeon journal is our best friend here. It's unclear on some things (like who and how many get sent up on smash). I also feel like strats for other groups may work for them for reasons we can't emulate - comps, group synergy, etc. I think we'd get more out of getting our tanks/heals/dps good at coordinating cooldowns/communicating/etc than we would following a strat that might or might not work for our comp. This is all speculation on my part - maybe it's irrelevant or not a big enough deal to matter. I'm still not watching videos. Anyway, I'm not keen on sticking to a strat that we don't understand and I've been muscling my opinions/suggestions into the mix, so I'll stop that.



I'm not asking anyone to stop suggesting ideas for strategies, more that we just need to get on the same page. I think videos are good as a starting place and for some people, such as myself, i can read the dungeon journal all day long and the only thing i remember once we pull is maybe that ability "X" is really bad so dont get caught by it. I learn best visually and seeing the encounter is worthfar more than some words on a page can ever do for me. Like when we start a new encounter and bob is explaining, he's very very thourough and i absorb about roughly nothing from what he says after the first minute or so. We pull, and i figure it out from there.

That aside, i think what my point with strategies was is more that we should try to be more focused on our changes. If we change something, make it matter. If we change 10 things, there's no way to know what changes helped and hurt. there's two ways to learn a fight, watch a video and do your best to emulate exactly what they tell you to do, or to devise a strategy on your own. The only way to do that is by breaking down the enocunter. Like we used to do, we'd get phase 1 down and it would be at a point where not a word was needed to be said about it. We knew what we were doing and got it done, saw phase two and face planted. Asked why, made small changes each pull until something clicked and we just got it done.
For blackhand we know phase 1. Our execution isn't so great every time, but its not due to lack of understanding whats going on, its just poor execution. No need for changes here, just better play, so not much discussion here needs to take place, just better execution.
For phase 2, we don't have a valid strategy. We all kind of run around randomly, some of us end up getting sent up to balconies, fingers crossed its the right one, sometimes we miss getting sent up. Once we miss one or two balconies, its a wipe. not immediately, but it IS a wipe as we will be overwhelmed by explosive shot the dudes fire at us really quickly. The other issue is the siege tank thing and not really knowing when we should kill them, and keep them up for people to hide behind. I know fire on the ground is really bad so we definately need to not have that. Also the explosive shot they shoot at us is equally bad if not worse.

salovia wrote:

Best Pull 30% - I think this is pretty misleading. We were wiped well before the transition (I think a tank and a healer made it to the floor in p3).

Completely agree, but it was still our best pull.
salovia wrote:
While we made it to 30% we had already failed the pull at probably 50% when people started dying (making that up, but it's par the course so far). My memory makes me think pulls to 40-45% are pretty repeatable. I also think that it was a fluke because we don't know what we were doing that got us to 30%.


I have absolutely nothing to back this up, but my guess is we did better at getting balconies cleared on this pull so we were able to survive longer. most of our deaths are always from that ability those dudes use to aoe us to death is the only reason leading me to this conclusion/guess.

salovia wrote:



Side note: our comps have sucked. 2 tanks/4 heals/6 deeps is terrible.
----


100% agreed. We really need to fix this by either getting more solid dps to come, or we might have to sit a healer. Even sitting one healer for a pull or two just to see what it does to our attempts would be valuable.

salovia wrote:
Anyway, we did pretty good all things considered. I need to get better at deferring to Bob so I'll shut my pie hole regarding strats/etc. My numbers suck balls on some fights, so I'm fine sitting out - I wont take it personally. I'm still interested in normal progression fights/clears, but I'm not really interested in grinding heroics for phat lewtz.


We did make progress, i agree, I dont know that shutting your pie hole is the right answer, I think bob just needs to step it up in the raid leader role. He's a great tank, but he needs to be... for lack of a better way to say it, more of an asshole or something. Respectfully take someones opinion/suggestion and either decide its a good idea and we should try it, or decide its a terriible idea and throw it out. Not trying to pick on bob here, but being raid leader isn't an easy job. its a LOT more than just being the guy marked as leader in the raid. He's gotta call the shots, and be able/willing to tell people when their suggestions are good, and more importantly when they are bad, and being able to tell people what their specific job is, or where they are making mistakes, and doing so in a quick enough fashion that its easily absorbed and not forgotten.("hey sal, you suck at killing siege engines. step it up." "Hey kaes, pay attention to your health before you go up to a balcony, don't go if you will die up there." etc...) I know you know this already though since you were raid leader for a couple expansions.


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