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:: View topic - blackhand statistics and why we are wiping so damn much RANT

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blackhand statistics and why we are wiping so damn much RANT
http://truthinessguild.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=377
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Author:  kaesden [ Thu May 07, 2015 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  blackhand statistics and why we are wiping so damn much RANT

MANY ISSUES, HANDLE THEM!

begin rant

ok so we're wiping a lot on blackhand and its mostly due to not avoiding avoidable damage, among a few other things i'll sum up at the bottom, but the avoidable stuff is the most important. I've gone through the log of our best pull and there's still a ton of issues. Other pulls are likely even worse.

phase 1:
yes we get out of phase one pretty much every time but we are still having problems. Problems that waste healer mana that will be needed in phase 2, and we haven't even really seen phase 3 yet which is by far the most demanding phase.

Massive demolition:
this is the big red circle in phase 1 when shit falls from the ceiling. we SUCK at it. our average damage per person, per circle taken is around 60-65k which is terrible. Sal gets a gold star here for averaging only 35k. The problem is I dont think everyone understands that you have to not only not be standing in the circle, but not even near it. like be 40+ yards away from them by the time it smashes down or else you will take a ton of damage. You will take damage no matter what, how much damage, is entirely up to you.

impaling throw:
we already know how deadly this is hopefully. you get hit, you get knocked way back and take some damage(80k). thats not the problem, the problem is you also take 30k damage every 3 seconds for 45 seconds, another 450k damage as a DOT. Moral of the story, don't get hit. This is valid in phase 1 and 2.
on our best pull, EVERYONE(except sal, another gold star) got hit at least once, some up to 4. on our worst pulls, probably a lot more, didnt check them all. I know its harder to not get hit in phase 2, but we still need to try to minimize this damage.

slag bomb:
the mines on the floor. lots of people hitting them and they do 108K damage. thats a lot. again our best pull EVERYONE hit at least one, some two. Sorry sal, you're guilty here too.

molten slag:
phase 1. this is the fire on the outside of the room. no excuse for getting hit by this. Possible exception is if tanks or melee take a tick or two since they are forced to be on the outside ring due to mechanics, but it should be minimized as much as possible. Not a critical issue since phase 1 we can get through routinely, but worth mentioning regardless.

battering ram:
phase 2. people are getting hit by the siege tanks. don't do it. 80k damage and a knockback. screws up positioning and knocks you out of healing range and possibly into something else bad. 7 people got hit here between 1 and 3 times.

explosive round:
ok so this isn't unavoidable damage, but it can be prevented. We need to do better at clearing the balconies. Get sent up to the right one every time and go kill the mobs. if we do better at the previous points, we'll have more health when we get sent up and can clear the mobs faster. They have 80k hp, shouldn't be hard to kill quickly. I can kill one in about 2 or 3 GCD's on my mage. We WILL get overwhelmed by them towards the end of phase two. its a soft enrage for the phase, but we still need to control them as best as possible. Also, spread out 6 yards in phase 2. each shot does 13k damage as an aoe. 3 people get hit at once and you take 30k damage each when you all get hit, 30k vs 90k damage.


Finally, some statistics that I know no one wants to hear, maybe don't believe, or just dont care about.

our average item level as a group is 676. of all uploaded logs, there is a 94% wipe rate for this gear level. This means one of two things.

A: Improve our play, get better at rotations to increase damage through skill, reduce avoidable damage taken(this is very important), and do mechanics better.(MOST important and will reduce avoidable damage naturally. Kill two birds with one stone.) Statistically we have a 6% chance of success right now, which means we should be playing in the top 10-15% of players for our gear level(we aren't even close. we're in the bottom 15% for dps.

B: Improve our gear to reduce difficulty. This would require farming BRF which i've suggested but no one wants to do. So if this is out, the only option is getting better.

Bottom line is, either we need to step it up and play better, or get more gear so we can do better. Get everyone 4 pc tier bonuses, and bump up ilvl a bit is probably all it would take. I'm frustrated with bashing our face against a wall trying to brute force killing this boss but the bottom line is we are sloppy. I want to kill blackhand, but if we don't improve our play it will not happen without better gear.

end rant.

Author:  kaesden [ Thu May 07, 2015 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: blackhand statistics and why we are wiping so damn much

oh I forgot to add my other rant.

changing strategies every single pull.
STOP IT.

monday night our best pull was our first pull. we got him to 30%. Then we changed things and did progressively worse all night. By now we know the fight, we know our jobs, we just need to execute them. We dont need to keep throwing stuff out there to try differently next pull for the most part. The only thing we need to change, is stop taking unnecessary damage.

Author:  ninde [ Thu May 07, 2015 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: blackhand statistics and why we are wiping so damn much

A note about impaling throw in phase 2....

At some point, there is no way to avoid that damage. 2 people get marked for death and there is no siege to hide behind. I believe this is every 3rd or so marked for death that this happens. At this point, I believe that it would be easier for the tank to take the impaling throw, since they're already getting heals dumped on them anyway. This will prevent both a huge DoT, as well as being throw halfway across the room and out of healing/dps range.


Also, balconies:

Every 3rd wave of mobs that comes out (so every 3rd smash), there will be a double wave. It will be extra important that a dps goes up for that round for sure, as well as a healer, to ensure that all of the mobs are killed quickly. The second wave comes out of a door, all at once, and can be stunned/snared/etc as a group before they spread out to their positions. So, we want to ensure that whoever is up there is aware that that'll be happening and get them down quickly as a group before they spread.

Author:  salovia [ Fri May 08, 2015 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: blackhand statistics and why we are wiping so damn much

I am probably in the minority, but I am excited that only 6% of the players with our ilevel have been successful. This does not mean we have a 6% chance for success. Because it can be done with our ilevel, our probability for success is determined by our skill (no clue what our % chance for success is). This statistic alone is somewhat misleading - it was called a wipe rate - that doesn't indicate how many wipes per group, or the number of wipes before a successful kill. Some groups could wipe 100 times before getting it at this level, others could wipe 20. Obviously we're not the 20 wipe group.

Anyway, my $0.02: I'd rather wipe continuously on normal and get the fight than grind our heroic kills just for better gear. I know mizz does not share this opinion, probably others as well. I'm not really interested in grinding heroics and following someone else's strat to the letter - I don't really find that interesting and it wont really feel like an accomplishment if we do that. We might be better off not extending. In the past before raid extensions, you had to get better at being prepared, killing trash, and killing bosses before you got a shot at the final boss. This naturally increases the supply of gear flowing into the group and increases our skill and coordination as a group.

I think your breakdown of the damage we took is awesome - lots of room for improvement there. Lots of room for personal improvement, but also lots of room for group improvements as well:

P1: Better campfire placement, better tank kiting (nearer campfires)
P2: Better siege kiting, better ranged following of the seige, better coordination of knock-ups and better overall job of killing balcony adds, better siege pickups (be aware of the siege spawning and gtfo), etc.

I think you covered all the important details about why/how/who/what has happening regarding damage so I don't have anything to add there really.

I disagree on a few things though:

Changing Strats - This is my fault because I'm stubborn. I 100% believe that (especially with encounters these days) it is a mistake on a hard boss to try to follow someone else's strat without knowing why or how the strat was derived. Bob and someone else mentioned that a lot of the strat videos you guys are watching go into great detail regarding why/when/how things are happening - that is awesome. I don't watch videos, so I'm bringing the group down in that regard. That being said - even after people watched strats, it's obvious we still don't know how/who/what is happening. Dungeon journal is our best friend here. It's unclear on some things (like who and how many get sent up on smash). I also feel like strats for other groups may work for them for reasons we can't emulate - comps, group synergy, etc. I think we'd get more out of getting our tanks/heals/dps good at coordinating cooldowns/communicating/etc than we would following a strat that might or might not work for our comp. This is all speculation on my part - maybe it's irrelevant or not a big enough deal to matter. I'm still not watching videos. Anyway, I'm not keen on sticking to a strat that we don't understand and I've been muscling my opinions/suggestions into the mix, so I'll stop that.

Best Pull 30% - I think this is pretty misleading. We were wiped well before the transition (I think a tank and a healer made it to the floor in p3). While we made it to 30% we had already failed the pull at probably 50% when people started dying (making that up, but it's par the course so far). My memory makes me think pulls to 40-45% are pretty repeatable. I also think that it was a fluke because we don't know what we were doing that got us to 30%. With any strat we've used it's always a gamble for the following things:

1. Who picks up the siege
2. Who goes up to the balcony
3. Where the boss is being kited to
4. Who gets impaled (marked is random, but no one should get impaled)

OG and I ignored the strat for the first pull that night (and subsequent pulls) and focused on killing the sieges before the spit fire on the floor (we weren't always successful). We seemed to do better when we did that. We have to eat some impales when we do this. We don't have a plan for handling this, so we aren't adapting to it when it happens. Puts more pressure on healers which sucks. I personally think we can't assign siege or balcony duty, but we don't seem to be able to get very far unless we do.


Side note: our comps have sucked. 2 tanks/4 heals/6 deeps is terrible.
----

Anyway, we did pretty good all things considered. I need to get better at deferring to Bob so I'll shut my pie hole regarding strats/etc. My numbers suck balls on some fights, so I'm fine sitting out - I wont take it personally. I'm still interested in normal progression fights/clears, but I'm not really interested in grinding heroics for phat lewtz.

Author:  kaesden [ Fri May 08, 2015 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: blackhand statistics and why we are wiping so damn much


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